Blogger is shocked that women are treated as objects

wait, no. I’m not shocked at all.

If you are naked at all, and a woman, it is only for the purpose of sex and men.

so many commenters on this Even the title of article lets us know that, silly women, don’t you know breasts are for men?

I doubt the women were “shocked” that men wanted watch them. They were making a point. Women cannot safely walk down the streets with the same rights as a man.

on woman say “We should be able to walk down the street and not have this many men taking pictures of us.”

I agree. Commenters of course say, “be realistic.” It is comepletely unrealistic to hope for equality. maybe it is, but I think that is too fatalistic. They are also accused of being “hypocritical biotches” because they are only doing it to get attention! (those slutty slut sluts).

It is not right that women may get naked for men. That his is acceptable and the only way for women to get naked. Why are we not allowed to be naked for ourselves? because it is hot? because we don’t like tan lines? because at that moment my shirt is tugging all weird like and the tag is itching me and I want to take it off?

but that’s right. either we are wrongfully distributing the property of one man, or we are now the property of all men. Yeah. I know, this isn’t shocking either. what’s it called again when men feel complete entitlement to women’s bodies? oh yeah… RAPE CULTURE

headdesk.

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monkey’s, porn and consent

Yesterday a(nother) liberal dood I know wanted to share how science totally rocks.  his evidence is that a study was done that shows monkey’s like porn and he read about it on the internet. now I don’t know if he read about it at ABC, but I figured if I was going to rant about it, I should look up an article about it.

Then he got really upset that i thought it was horrible. Later he even sent me an email along the lines of, “but I’m a nice guy why do you think I’m a horrible person?” Which makes the issue, not about my reaction to porn, not about rape culture, not about animal captivity, but about poor him and his feelings. Because my feelings hurt his feelings and that is so mean.

This means that I now I have to spend my time letting him know I don’t think he is a horrible person. Well I have to do this if i want to keep the peace. And I do want to keep the peace since I work with him, and we rely on each other to help each other out when studying, and things like that. GRRRR.

But on to the monkeys. First, the article is about how “The study is the first to show that monkeys appraise visual information for its social value and can then use this data to spontaneously discriminate between images of their fellow monkeys.”

but just like with humans the scientists understood “monkeys” to mean MALE BODIED monkeys.

Twelve adult male rhesus macaques (Macaca mulatta) participated in the study

so already there was bias. that female bodied monkey’s don’t count and we don’t need to see how they think since they are the “other sex” anyway.

The monkey’s were given headshots of both males and females, and hindquarters of females to look at. The article does not discuss how the monkeys responded to headshots of the females. but high social ranking males and female hindquarters were “paid for” more often.

Did they pay for headshots of the women too? would they pay for hindquarter shots of the socially high ranking males? how do we know that “sexiness” of the picture had anything to do with it? Maybe social desirability of the subject was important regardless of the position of the monkey in the camera frame. (not to mention that heteronormative assumptions are made about all subjects in the test).  So again, bias about how humans (i.e. heterosexual male humans) view naked pictures comes into how the experiment was organised, and how the data is interpreted:

Camerer says it is “no surprise” that male monkeys “really like looking at female posteriors”. But he is puzzled that males would pay with juice to see high-status males, but would not look at them for very long.

so already we can see this is a problematic study, immersed in patriarchal structure. feminsiting has a post today about science being used to objectify (human) women.

But what about the monkeys? they were “housed in captivity”.  And someone tells me about this study and expects me to be thrilled because no monkey’s were “physically harmed”(quote from self proclaimed nice guy)? Um… vegan here, I’m for autonomy of creatures. that means I’m against captive animals as a slave class for experimentation, regardless of the nature of the experiment.

And onto the issue of consent. This is the biggest issue involved. I don’t know about you, but If I was hanging around and people took pictures of my genitals and butt, and then sold it as porn to someone else, I’d feel angry and violated. But we can do that to monkeys, and its no big deal. More specifically, we can do that to FEMALE BODIED monkeys and it is  SCIENCE.

But you know what? People do this to FEMALE BODIED PEOPLE too. and there is no recourse. If I’m at a nude beach, and someone takes a picture to use as porn, that’s sick right? but shit like this happens, and it is legal, since I’m in a public place. CREEPY. Even if it were illegal, I can’t go to the cops. That could close down the beach, and everyone would “know” its my own fault, and really I wanted it anyway because otherwise I wouldn’t have been naked and teasing men with my nudity.

so this whole taking pornographic pictures without consent issue is both personal and political.

Just more evidence that female bodies are the bodies of the sex class. To be used by men, for sex and porn whenever they want to.  Whether it is male scientists using female monkey bodies to observe monkey objectification, or male monkeys paying to view female bodies as a commodity. Or if it is male humans jerking off in public at a female body who is minding her business and just wants to enjoy the beach. Female bodies are only good for sexual gratification of men and to hell with what women think about it.  Guess what that looks like to me: rape culture.

but you know, getting upset about this hurts the feelings of all those liberal nice guys who really do respect women “both as a group and as individuals”, but who still find this study awesome. /snark.

don’t blame the beach, blame the person at the beach!

This article pisses me off. For lots of reasons.

Firstly no one should be forced, or feel pressure, (especially at work) to join a culture that makes them uncomfortable. that’s bad. that’s some sort of harrassment. But I hate to see nude beaches and sexual in the same sentence unless it is to condem a pervert. Now I think her boss was harrassing her sexually:

“Not using your looks is like not using your intelligence,” he replied flatly.
….
“Now, there’s a party going on across the street,” he continued. “Get over there for your drunkard story and get some photos. Do what you have to to get in, you know? Flirt, offer dates, anything. Use what you’ve got.”

I don’t dispute that at all. But he is not the only harrasser and she blames her boss for the sexual harrasment that some other man did to her.

“Now, some women really don’t need to shave that much,” he opined, “take yourself, for instance.” His eyes dropped to my bare nether regions. I blushed all the way to my ears, but said nothing. Instead, I forced my eyes onto my notepad and began scribbling incoherently.

Then there was an odor. I tried not to believe it, but it was impossible to ignore the fact that he had brought himself to orgasm.

now this happened in California. So I can say for a fact this man broke the law.  While ultimately creepy isn’t illegal, masturbating in public will land you on the sex offenders list.

This man is at fault for his actions, not her boss, not her.   now the treatment of her story when she returned to work was inconsiderate, and uncompoasionate and reprehensible, but that is not where the major incident occured.

Now, Although it is implied that the editor asked her to go nude to the beach for his own perverse reasons, I can say if a clothed person with a camera was walking down the beach they would have a difficult time getting people to respond to them. My reaction to clothed people with cameras is: get dressed and tell them to fuck off and make sure they are well away with their camera not focused anywhere near me, before I take my clothes off again.  My default reaction is defensive, because the sad fact is: creepy isn’t illegal.  There are creeps sometimes, but my encounters with them are far fewer that my good days.  (of course I always go with a male friend to ward off the worst of it.)

She was probably asking if it was ok to take pictures, so ok, but it makes people uneasy. ( read it makes me and some of the people I know uneasy)  Lots of beach-goers and resort-attendees are in the closet to their family and friends or at least their boss. So nude pics floating around aren’t looked upon happily by all.

 I just think this article is anti-nudism.  That the harrasment was related to a nudist place, I concur, but that does not mean the nudist place is to blame.  pervs are pervs in any context.

Published in: on November 19, 2007 at 3:22 pm  Comments (3)  
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Female nudists need a community of their own

now, I’m not a separatist Feminist, but I do know that in certain situations having men around can make women uncomfortable exploring or trying new things, or discussing topics that are important to be discussed.  In a perfect world these things wouldn’t be taboo for men or women, and could be discussed as a society.  But with the societal constraints we have, approaching nudism as a woman is difficult.

 That is not to say that with our societal constraints approaching nudism as a man is easy, But there are far more male than female nudists, and I can only speak from my perspective.

Women are brought up to see themselves as objects and tools for men’s gratification.  (Even men are brought up to see women this way.)  I know that this is does not apply to 100% of the population, but to some extents our culture tells us this.  look at any magazine, or at pop icons.  Just because there are a few exceptions doesn’t mean the problem isn’t there, or that it’s ok to ignore it.  But I digress…

 If you are a woman interested in nudism, and you go to a beach or a resort, you will be getting naked in front of men.  These same men that you were taught will objectify you, and who will drool over you.  The men that society tells us cannot control themselves if a woman wears a skirt that is too short.  And we’re expected to simply forget society and happily prance about?

It takes time, and courage.  I only go down to the beach when I have male protectors.  Men that I know will keep the creeps away (because it is a public place men who think it is ok to objectify women troll the beach looking for women to stare at and sometimes (though rarely) even jack off to).  I’ve never been to a resort, but I would not go alone the first time even though the pervs are screened out.  I would not feel comfortable.

 It would be utterly fantastic to have a place to go to be naked where I could feel safe.  I feel safe on the beach if my friends are there, but I want to feel unconditionally safe.  I think it would be great to have talks about society and self perception.  What is expected of the female body, and what is the reality?  Let us accept and embrace that reality! 

Once more comfortable with our bodies and ourselves, I think it would be easier to happily prance at resorts with people of all genders. 

 One more comment.  Before anyone says this is reverse sexism and we should allow men,  This is about creating a space for women to join an already existing community.  Not a community completely separate from men. 

strong woman vs naked little girl

EDIT: If You are searching for porn I hope your balls turn green, shrivel and fall off. Fuck off pervert.
if not, sorry for the interruption.

I go to a nude beach.  Often 3 or 4 times a week.  I’ve never been to a nude resort but I think that it might be fun.  there would be fewer creeps in a resort.

State beaches are public places.  That means the creepy guy with binoculars isn’t doing anything illegal.  That fully clothed man who is staring at me when I body-surf, isn’t doing anything illegal.    This is a much bigger problem for women than it is for men.   The big problem is there is nothing I can really do about it myself.  If I get up in some pervs face, that might just excite him.  I feel totally helpless.

So what do I do?  I need a man to help me.  Even better if it is multiple men.   I have found a group on the beach that is associated with The Naturist SocietyThe Blacks Beach Bares.  They really make me feel safe at the beach as a single woman.  We stake out an area and set up umbrellas, and when creepy people (read “creepy men”) show up the guys ask them to leave.  Let me tell you, a clothed gawker doesn’t like being approached by naked men.

Being protected makes me feel wonderful and safe and totally used by the patriarchy.   I’ve done a lot of introspection on the matter.  It pisses me off that I need to be saved.  when I was little and I played make believe my favorite character was “Zorra”.  I was like Zorro, but a girl.  I wanted to save the town from the corrupt and help the people.  I can’t stand needing to be saved, or I couldn’t until I got used to it.

I feel I can’t go up to them.  it would reinforce the behavior.  I mean yes I’m upset, but now they have breasts really close to them.   Here’s my view on it now:

The problem is one that exists within the patriarchy.  I’m currently living in the patriarchy.  A solution exists within the patriarchy.  I can either use this solution, or not go to the beach, or go to the beach and get stared at by creepy people.

I want what I want.  I want to go to the beach.  The guys that stand up for me are kind, and respectful.  Some are more entrenched in patriarchal views than others, but in general they are good people.  I think that just because someone is selfish (about giving up their privilege) doesn’t make them bad.  It doesn’t make them stellar, but I know there is a lot of privilege I don’t give up to make the world better either.

Published in: on August 21, 2007 at 11:07 am  Comments (4)  
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